People often mention that certain orthodox Jewish groups hold that blue jean skirts are un-tznius and unacceptable for women, to the point of ostracizing them or their children for that. I can’t find any articles about it now, but I remember hearing about two children who were expelled from their day school because their mom wore blue jean skirts. Personally, a floor-length blue jean skirt might be the most tznius thing I own: It’s like wearing a stiff tarp. (And yes, it’s one of my favorite skirts!)
Can someone please explain this to me? I don’t get it.
R. Falk in Oz V'Hadar Levushah says long skirts are a problem. You can search here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=MY4xtbRlxWIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=falk+modesty&hl=en&ei=yJY9TdWvL8OqlAf0yu3aBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
The explanation makes no sense to me, though.
I don't know about the particular case you're referring to, but I've heard of many schools in Israel that don't allow people to wear denim. See for example this imamother thread:
http://www.imamother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118524&sid=88c5f67a658777de6ad5a56cdbec6367
But I can't explain the phenomenon because I really don't get it.
At a guess, denim is a worker's fabric, and Jewish women are queens. In the groups where the prohibition is in force, are men allowed to wear blue jeans? I doubt it, but then I suspect that in those groups men would wear nothing but black suits and white shirts.
I think the problem started with jeans. When they first started making jeans for women, they were (and still are) very tight. Women who wore jeans were seen as more "modern" and were viewed as "less than" by "right wing" Orthodox Jews.
I think the stigma of denim was transferred to all denim products, including skirts, and their wearers.
Some communities might push back on denim skirts, but in the communities around me they are common. (Not so for denim jeans.)
I actually just read something about that on another blog. I am posting the link
Life On A Cotton Ball: Denim vs. Jeans
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/bleach-underground-campaigns-against-immodest-clothing-in-bnei-brak-1.209773
Here's an old article from HaAretz you might find interesting.
I had never heard of the denim skirt controversy until now! Surprising because the denim skirt is the uniform of most FFB's that I know not only in my community but others around us. Crazy!
What about not imitating the gentiles (sorry, but I forget the Hebrew term)? Considering that jeans/denim is fairly ubiquitous in the secular world, wearing it could be seen as following their ways, since it's adapting their fashions.
What about not imitating the gentiles (sorry, but I forget the Hebrew term)? Considering that jeans/denim is fairly ubiq
The hats haredi men use have their origins in gentile fashion. Most women's fashions in O communities today follow contemporary fashions other than longer skirts and only using long sleeves.
Many poskim feel the prohibition of chukat hagoyim (following the ways of the gentiles) applies primarily to their religious customs, or at least to customs based on irrationality rather than common sense.
Out of all the tzniut women's clothing out there, why would jean skirts be the only clothes that transgress this prohibition?
There is nothing substantial to this, in my unhumble opinion. It is solely cultural backlash. It goes something like this: 'The people I disapprove (secular, religious zionists, modern observant, etc.) were denim. Therefore it is a cultural symbol. As a statement of my total rejection of – fill in the blank from above list – I disapprove of and even ban denims, even if they are otherwise modest.'
Honestly, this is an excellent example of how we need to be well-informed and discerning about what are really 'Torah values'; and what are subcultural distortions and restrictions recently invented to reinforce the sense of separation from those of whom we disapprove.
As you can see, I think the whole thing is worse than ridiculous. It is unnecessary, distorts Torah, and emphasizes all the wrong things.
What about black denim skirts? Denim can be dyed….
When I was a christian (yes I was one – get over it ;)) in a strict mennonite culture this debate was around too. Were jean skirts too worldly? where they immodest? some would say that women should only wear such and such fabric… other would say that there was nothing immodest about demin.
hate to break it to you all but this isn't just a Jewish debate. I found it ridiculous then and I do now.
Elle, thank you for sharing! I thought it was just a Jewish debate, so I'm glad to see others are equally crazy 🙂 How interesting!
Forget all the religious garbage. Blue jean skirts make a woman's butt look huge. The material is stiff and doesn't flow around their hips and their legs look too skinny by comparison. Throw those jean sacks out!!
Back about 15 years ago, our foster daughter, attending an Israeli Beis Yaakov school (not my idea) was told they couldn't wear jean skirts because they are "too rechovi" — too much "of the street". The inference is that everyone (meaning religious Zionist girls) are wearing them, and how will you set yourself apart as a Beis Yaakiov girl if you're dressed the same as them? This has nothing to do with religion and a lot to do with sociology. It's sad, and there's way too much of it in the Orthodox world today. "Be careful out there."
The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:
Don't Beis Yaakov's pleated skirts remind you of the Mousketeers?
I'm with Mordechai, Elle and Anonymous. Whatever someone's Rav might be saying is the justification for the ban on jean skirts, it's ultimately another manifestation of the Chumrot of the Month Club and really has less to do with halacha than sociology.
A lot of the frum communities with which I've interacted favor jean skirts, as well. Of course, I don't really go much further afield than MO and Lubavitch, so I wouldn't really expect to encounter this issue much.
The Curmudgeonly Israeli Giyoret says:
I was in a haredi-run clothing store when one of the customers said she didn't want to buy any of "those Zionist skirts", ie, the long ones. The salesman became irate claiming that his very haredi cousins in Antwerp came to Israel to buy the very same style and length.
I met a new immigrant from Ramat Beit Shemesh who said she'd been told not to wear jeans skirts or running shoes anymore by her neighbors. They referred her to a course being offered locally that "tells you everything you have to do", like not wearing running shoes, so that you will be accepted as a member of haredi society. (Which, by the way, is a laugh) The course takes 2 years, if you're interested.
I think all girls need to wear only dresses and jean skirts because pants and shorts are for men and skirts and dresses are for women. Lastly, race mixing is wrong and against the bible,just like women wearing pants.
Is this educational or a rant? I came here in order to learn about the information, not the opinions and attitudes of people out there.
It sounds like you don't understand the purpose of this blog. It's to help understand social and hashkafic norms, which is an education that conversion candidates and BTs don't get without much suffering and embarrassment. This blog serves to shorten the learning curve and prevent making a fool of oneself.
You must be from the white upc. Your comment is completely ignorant and you don't know your Bible.